Waar ik me de laaste tijd erg in verdiep zijn de jaren '44 en '45.
En wat voor mij een grote raadsel blijft is wat er nou afspeelde in de gebergte van Zuid-Duitsland en Oostenrijk. Ik weet dat er rond die tijd een gerucht bestond over Festung Alpen, wat later niet (of bijna niet) waar bleek te zijn.

Toch is in dat gebergte nog flink geknokt tussen fanatieke SS'ers en Geallieerde soldaten. Dit kan natuurlijk ook erg geromantiseerd zijn en voor hetzelfde geld bestond de beruchte Alpen Festung voornamelijk uit fanatieke opa's en berggeiten.
In iedergeval zou ik hier graag meer over willen weten. En aangezien de gemiddelde member van deze forum meer dan gemiddeld hoogbegaafd is op het gebied van WW2 is dit beste plek om zulke vragen te stellen.

alvast bedankt

Over de acties en gevechten kan ik vrij weinig vertellen. Wel was de omgeving van Berchtesgarden en de Obersalzberg (ca 1000 meter hoge berg) in Beieren zeer in trek bij de nazi top. Hitler had er zelfs een enkele 'zomerhuizen' (nu moet ik niet in de war raken..) namelijk het Adelaarsnest en de Berghof.

Aangezien daar de verblijven waren van de nazitop kun je je natuurlijk wel voorstellen dat daar nog enigzins 'gevochten' werd tegen de oprukkende Fransen en Amerikanen. De fijne weetjes weet ik er niet van, maar wel dat er een SS-hoofdkwartier gelegerd was, maar dit is plat gebombardeerd aan het einde van de oorlog, net als de Berghof.

En uiteraard waren de Alpen een natuurlijke verdediging tegen de oprukkende Geallieerden, hooggelegen, smalle bergwegen enz. Voor infanterie-eenheden een goed middel om zich nog enigzins te kunnen verweren met lichte wapens tegen voertuigen.

Ik denk dat je goed beeld heb gegeven van de acties tegen de oprukkende geallieerden, maar wat ik me vooral afvraag is de situatie onder de SS'ers rond deze Nazi "bolwerken". Waren ze nog wel zo gedisciplineerd en vechtlustig of is dit allemaal flauwe kul. Volgens bij heeft er in die bergen en bossen nog heel veel moed plaatsgevonden dat jammer genoeg uit de geschiedenis verdwenen is.

Elke informatie is van harte welkom (kan van alles zijn: de eenheden die daar toen gelegerd waren tot de aantal voertuigen die zo nog bezaten)

Boomschors:




De Alpenfestung was een mythe. 99% van alle zgn. elitesoldaten van de Oberzalsberg eo. waren al veel eerder naar het front gestuurd. Er hebben geen significante 'veldslagen' plaatsgevonden. Slechts enkele kleine schermutselingen die weinig tot niets om het lijf hadden. De geallieerden hadden het veel druk met het elkaar de loef afsteken wie er het eerste in Berchtesgaden was.

Nu is hier al een topic over, maar ik wil nog wel even herhalen dat ik mij helemaal niet kan voorstellen dat daar nog "enigszins gevochten is". Wat zou daar de logica van zijn. De Berghof was, op een kleine eenheid van het Wachbataillon na, leeg. Alle nazi topstukken zaten in Berlijn of op andere lokaties in Duitsland. Het einde van de Berghof was vrij eenvoudig. op 25 april 1945 wierp de RAF 1300 bommen op de Obersalzberg. Dit was voor die laatste mannen van het Wachbataillon het teken dat ze beter konden maken dat ze weg kwamen. Geen heldhaftige gevechten. Ze staken de ruïne in brand en gingen er vandoor. De geallieerden troffen de overblijfselen van het complex verlaten aan.

p.s.: in de wetenschap dat je in een pb aankondigde mij voortaan te negeren. Hoop dat dit topic niet ook tot "ditjes en datjes" behoort

Dus in andere woorden, de gebergtes van Zuid-Duitsland en Oostenrijk was vrijwel stil in mei, 1945? Hier en daar een verwarde en verdwaalde Duitse soldaat. Is dit de beste beschrijving? Natuurlijk geloof ik jullie, had zelf ook zo'n mijn twijfels over de bovengenoemde vragen. Het zullen wel Hollywood en de w02 games zijn die mij tot deze vragen dwongen.

In iedergeval erg bedankt voor jullie reacties.

Leeg niet hoor. Aan de Duitse kant van de Alpen wel maar aan de Oostenrijkse kant van de grens - tussen Lilienfeld en Pernitz - vochten de restanten van het 6. SS-Panzerarmee om te overleven tegen een Russische overmacht. Ze probeerden wanhopig de sector van de westelijke geallieerden te bereiken. Op 8 mei trekken via Waidhofen en dan de rivier de Enns over waarna ze zich overgeven aan de Amerikanen.

Ok, dat wist ik nog niet. Weet wel dat er in mei en april, 45 dit vaker voorkwam bij de Duitse divisies die in een pocket terechtkwamen.

Het waren de restanten van de Duitse troepenmacht die ingezet was in een poging Boedapest te heroveren. Die staken met Pasen de Hongaars - Oostenrijkse grens over en trokken zich terug op Wenen. Daar werden ze door de grote overmacht van het Rode Leger verdreven en toen probeerden ze de Amerikaanse linies te bereiken, wat delen - waaronder de schamele restanten van de Leibstandarte en de Hitlerjugend - gelukt is.

Weer wat geleerd over de tweede wereld oorlog!

het was inderdaad een bizar gegeven. Aan de Oostenrijkse kant probeerden de resten van de troepen van Operation Frühlingserwachen wanhopig de Russen te ontlopen, terwijl aan de Duitse kant verschillende Amerikaanse en Franse eenheden probeerden als eerste de laatste Hoofdprijs te behalen: Hitlers berg.

In een latere fase waren dit ook de soldaten die de gevluchte Duitse troepen 'ontvingen' en daarbij behoorlijk wat 'oorlogsbuit' verkregen.

Wat ik nu interessante materie vind is de mystery van het Toplitzmeer in de bergen van Oostenrijk.
Hier zouden nazi's goud en valse Britse ponden hebben gedumpt.
Hele mooie documentaire over gezien alleen kan er niets op het forum van terugvinden!?..
Met google kom je niet ver, maar de documentaire verteld de hele mysterie.

Heb ik ook eens gezien. Ik vond het een typische documentaire van "piramidioten": een zéér dun laagje werkelijke bewijzen maar zo ingepakt dat het aannemelijk klinkt.

U.S. explorers to mine alpine lake for Nazi gold

The Nazis used Lake Toplitz as a vast, submerged cellar, warehousing millions of dollars' worth of stolen art, gold and jewels, among other things. Over the years, much has been recovered, including millions of counterfeit British and American currency, as well as the press that minted them. But some say most of what was dumped in Toplitz is still in Toplitz.

by San Francisco Chronicle


Nazis' fake British currency found in lake Toplitz

Russian troops were fast approaching Berlin in April 1945 when a Nazi convoy slipped out of the German capital and headed south. The dozen trucks rumbled all day and night with a cargo of gold, counterfeit money and secret government documents. Their destination: this lake in the nearly impenetrable mountains across the border in Austria. The crates were placed aboard rowboats and carried out to the center of this small but deep Alpine lake, where they were dumped overboard. The Nazi secrets were safe. the search recovered provided evidence of a Nazi operation to counterfeit British pounds.

by usatoday


Last dive for Lake Toplitz's Nazi gold

It has inspired numerous expeditions, several mysterious deaths and plenty of books. But 60 years after Nazi officers hid metal boxes in the depths of Lake Toplitz, a new attempt is being made to recover the Third Reich's fabled lost gold. Treasure hunters have been flocking to Lake Toplitz ever since a group of Nazis retreated to this picturesque part of the Austrian Alps in the final months of WWII. With US troops closing in and Germany on the brink of collapse, they transported the boxes to the edge of the lake, first by military vehicle and then by horse-drawn wagon, and sunk them.

by mg


Nazi Gold – The Search for Truth

Soviet Troops Raise the Hammer & Sickle Over the Reichstag Building After Taking Berlin. Days Before Nazi Officers Fled Berlin with Treasure to be hidden in the Alpine Fortress. In the final days of WWII with allied troops advancing, a bombed out Berlin stood on the verge of collapse. Fleeing Berlin, Nazi officers took with them vast amounts of treasure along with the darkest secrets of the Third Reich. The Nazi plan was to evacuate Hitler and a guerrilla army to the region around Lake Toplitz in the Austrian mountains that they called the “Alpine Fortress.”

by losttreasure


The hunt for Nazi gold - Toplitzsee lake

The search for gold stolen by the Nazis has resulted in a stream of films, books and treasure hunters. Now German television has produced a new documentary about the search for the hidden treasures of Hitler's Third Reich. A word to treasure hunters: forget about it - at least if you're scouring Toplitzsee lake. This is the message from German biologist, Professor Hans Fricke, the man who more by chance led the underwater research of the 107-metre deep lake in the Austrian Alps. Originally setting out to discover biological secrets of the unique lake, the professor instead got caught up in the mystery about vast sums of Nazi Germany's hidden gold.

by expatica


Gold rush follows Nazi grail in a Bavarian lake

A gold urn made for a Nazi party leader has been discovered in a Bavarian lake, prompting a scramble by treasure hunters to get their hands on the Third Reich’s long-lost riches. The gold urn is decorated with Celtic figures and worth £70,000. The upper Bavarian Walchensee is said to contain £200m in gold bars. In the Seetalsee across the border in Austria a further £500m in ingots is said to repose in a watery grave. Chalices, diamonds and gold looted from churches are said to lie in the Grundlsee. Most famous is Lake Toplitz. In 1945 it was as remote as the moon. And with secrets to keep, that was just what the Nazis were looking for.

by scotsman


Nazi security chief Ernst Kaltenbrunner's seal found in Alpine lake

The personal seal of the Nazi security chief Ernst Kaltenbrunner has been found in an Alpine lake, more than 50 years after he threw it away in an effort to hide his identity. The seal was recovered by chance by a Dutch holidaymaker in the shallows of the Altausee, Austria. Kaltenbrunner was head of the SD, the security section of the SS, and was hanged at Nuremberg for war crimes. Experts at Vienna University who have examined the seal believe Kaltenbrunner probably threw it into the lake in the final days of the war in May 1945.

by telegraph

Nazi-hunters mount search for lost loot

A team of US divers is to search a lake in Austria for boxes of gold and art objects stolen by Nazis. It is believed that Lake Toplitz, could also hide boxes of forged money and documents intended to help Nazis escape to South America. The documents, experts believe, could also reveal how assets seized by the Third Reich were deposited in Swiss banks; show how the Vatican aided in the transfer of funds to South America. It might also be revealed just how the SS planned, in Operation Bernhard, to counterfeit billions of fake pounds sterling for dropping over Britain, in an attempt to destabilise the British economy.

by divernet

Nog meer (sterke?) verhalen:

Lake Como is an example. Legend insists that SS Sturmbannfuhrer Otto Skorzeny amassed a sizeable fortune (including much of Benito Mussolini's missing horde) during the war. Skorzeny, a daring commander, led a commando force to rescue the Italian dictator in September, 1943, after Mussolini had been overthrown and imprisoned in the wake of the Allied invasion of Italy. Mussolini was held prisoner in a hotel on top of the Gran Sasso d'Italia, the highest mountain range in the Abruzzi Apennines. By making a glider assault on the place, Skorzeny and his men were able to overpower Mussolini's guards and fly the dictator out to safety in a Storch light aircraft.

Some years later, there were several well-publicized accounts by men who had served under Skorzeny's command alleging that they had been present when bullion was hidden in Lake Como. There have been many attempts to find it, but all have failed. Some scholars believe that Skorzeny, who was brought before an American war crimes tribunal at Dachau and acquitted, clandestinely recovered the hidden horde before moving to South America, where he established a prosperous cement business.

Lake Lunersee is another example of an alpine lake used for hiding ill-gotten gains. It lies nestled near the small Austrian town of Brand, several hundred miles southwest of Saltzburg. Sometime in the late spring of 1945, four boxes filled with jewelry, rare stamps, and gold bars were allegedly hidden in a carefully concealed spot somewhere along its rocky shores. The treasure came straight from the gates of Hell...Dachau.

The horrors associated with Dachau are indescribable. It was a place used primarily as a crematorium and not as a prison. Practically everyone not German who entered through its gates was destroyed. And in true Nazi fashion, anything of value was confiscated. Eyeglasses, clothing, jewelry, even the metal fillings in the teeth were torn from the helpless victims for Nazi use. The treasure accumulated from the prisoners brought to Dachau for execution or cremation was staggering.

With the surrender of Germany only a matter of time, the Commandant of Dachau ordered the wealth removed. He had it loaded into four large boxes, judged to be ammunition boxes by their size, and smuggled out of the camp under cover of darkness.

The route allegedly went from the outskirts of Munich into Austria through the Arlberg Pass toward the small town of Brand. Near Brand was a pristine mountain lake called the Lunersee. This lake, located on the Swiss border, was the destination.

After the War, an Austrian physician named Wilhelm Gross treated imprisoned Nazi war criminals. One of the criminals who had been condemned to death was an SS officer who had been at Dachau. This man told Doctor Gross the amazing story of the buried wealth. In 1952, Doctor Gross shared the story with Doctor Edward Greger, who was then a U.S. Army intelligence officer stationed in Austria. Doctor Gross told Greger that it started at the concentration camp when the Commandant of Dachau and three of his assistants loaded the treasure into four boxes and left. The informant claimed to be one of the four SS officers who conspired to smuggle this treasure out of Dachau.

The Allied armies had not yet reached the isolated region around the Lunersee and the Nazis believed their loot would be safe there. They planned to escape across the Swiss border after burying the treasure and return years later when they thought it would be safe to uncover the horde.

It took the men several days to reach the Lunersee. They practiced covert operations as they traveled, using all the back roads and traveling early in the morning or late in the evening to avoid possible patrols, friendly or otherwise. When they finally arrived at the Lunersee, the only structure in the area was a small hut. They sighted on a brook across the lake and buried the treasure boxes exactly halfway between the hut and the lake in line with the brook. They then said their farewells and went their separate ways, planning to return when the timing was right.

Three of them left and headed into Switzerland. The fourth person went back down into the valley to return to his family. According to the story Doctor Gross told Edward Greger, this fourth person was captured, tried for his crimes, and sentenced to die. While awaiting execution, he told his secret. His companions were never seen again.

Edward Greger believed the story. He agreed to help Doctor Gross search for the treasure, but before they could mount an expedition, Doctor Gross mysteriously disappeared.

Four years passed and in 1956, a dam was constructed on the Lunersee. The resulting increase in the lake's level submerged the treasure boxes under seventy-five feet of water. and that's how things remained until the summer of 1990. That summer, thirty-four years later, enough water was let out of the dam to return the lake to its original depth. Coupled with a severe drought, the water level was at an all-time low. Armed with information culled from the personal papers of the missing Doctor Gross, Edward Greger returned to the Lunersee.

Edward Greger and an associate pinpointed the treasure's location by using coordinates from the map given him by Doctor Gross, but in spite of a thorough search with metal detectors, he was unable to find any sign of the treasure. His failure raises several interesting questions. The most obvious is: did the remaining three SS officers return and dig it out? If it is still in the Lunersee, where is it? Or, more importantly, did the treasure ever really exist? Was Doctor Gross's story just that...a story?

Edward Greger feels that the three remaining officers did not dig it up. By the time it would have been safe to return, the treasure would have been submerged. Furthermore, documents brought to light at a 1946 war crimes trail indicate that such a treasure really did exist. In Volume I of the Report of the Atrocities Committee at the Dachau Concentration Camp, Robert W. Kesting, a federal employee, discovered some evidence of the treasure in the archives, specifically an interrogation statement from a man named Josef Jarolin.

Josef Jarolin was tried, convicted, and executed for atrocities he committed while he was a sub-commandant of Dachau. According to his testimony and statements from four other sources, the head commandant had been involved in a conspiracy to smuggle the treasure from inside the camp to a place of safety on the outside. This officer's name was Fredrick Viter.

One witness, according to Robert Kesting, claimed that he saw Viter have the trucks loaded...being loaded with valuables out of the cash storage area. According to some other testimony, Viter was seen leaving the camp in those vehicles. Later on, he was also seen by other SS personnel heading towards the Swiss border. Also, Jarolin testified that other camp personnel had assisted in burying this treasure and that approximately $5 million in gold Reichmarks was taken in valuables.

Josef Jarolin went to his grave never revealing any more about the treasure. Edward Greger believes that Jarolin was one of the four men who buried the boxes in the Lunersee and was perhaps Doctor Gross's mysterious informant.

If this treasure still exists in the Lunersee, it is estimated to be worth more than $50 million dollars at today's prices. It is also once again under water. Edward Greger plans to return when the lake level is once again low enough to search along the shoreline. If found, he would like the treasure's proceeds used to provide medical care for needy individuals. It would be a fitting use of the wealth stolen under such grim circumstances.

Not all of the priceless art treasures were horded by the fleeing Germans. Another massive haul of Nazi treasure was discovered at the end of the war by American forces in a disused mine shaft at Quedlinburg, a few miles south of Magdeburg in eastern Germany. It included medieval works of art, including gold and silver crucifixes, rock crystal flasks, a beautiful silver recepticle for keeping and displaying sacred relics called a reliquary which was inlaid with precious stones and enamels, a liturgical ivory comb, various priceless gifts belonging to the warlords who ruled the old states of Germany in the 9th and 10th Centuries, and---perhaps the most priceless of all---a beautifully illustrated 9th Century version of the four gospels in a gold and silver binding encrusted with gold and jewels.

The treasure was discovered by a U. S. Army lieutenant named Joe T. Meador, who was assigned to one of three teams searching for weapons, radio transmitters and other equipment that might be put to use by Nazi resistance fighters. (One of his men accidentally stumbled into the mine shaft while on patrol.) Meader was given the task of guarding it until it could be properly catalogued and identified. Meader, however, had other ideas. He quietly removed the treasure, piece by piece, and nonchalantly mailed them home.

The Army launched an inquiry on the missing horde, but this ended in 1949 when Quedlinburg became part of East Germany. Meanwhile, Meador returned to his hometown of Whitewright, Texas, and operated a hardware store. When he died in 1980 at the age of sixty-four, rumors circulated among dealers in medieval art all over the world that `something remarkable' would soon appear on the market. Sure enough, in 1990, a private West German organization announced that it had recovered one of the missing artworks---the four gospels---after paying a "finder's fee" of $3 million to a lawyer acting for the estate of a former American soldier, a Texan. They also recovered another priceless item of the treasure horde---a 1513 manuscript valued at $500,000.

Further investigation revealed that the town of Whitewright was the hiding place of all the missing Quedlinburg treasure. The items were widely dispersed...found in offices at Meador's hardware store, in private homes, and in safe-deposit boxes. Two-thirds of the treasure was recovered; all in perfect condition. But one-third is still missing. and the hunt continues.

Today, Florence, Italy, is considered the center for the continuing search of Nazi plunder stolen from Europe. It is estimated that as much as one third of Italy's stolen treasures remains hidden, most of it still thought to be in Germany. One of the hardest tasks for the art detectives anywhere is rooting out the fake masterpieces that began turning up after the War. Museums anxious to restore their collections were among many who fell victims to the swindles perpetrated in the name of art. The flood of copies has made it even harder to trace the fate of the originals.

The clues are scarce and after so many years, almost non-existent, but the search continues. Perhaps the day will come when the destruction of the past can finally be cast aside. All the treasure may never be found, but with the dulling of time, maybe people can forget.