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Duitse leger eenheden in Drenthe/ Groningen 1945 
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ErnstJan

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Bericht Duitse leger eenheden in Drenthe/ Groningen 1945
Wie weet waar ik kan vinden welke Duitse legereenheden er in Zuidlaren/Groningen gelegerd waren tussen januari en april 1945. Ik ben dan vooral op zoek naar medische eenheden.(in Zuidlaren was in maart/april 1945 een Duits Kriegslazaret.)

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do feb 04, 2016 1:25 pm
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jw1985

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Bericht Re: Duitse leger eenheden in Drenthe/ Groningen 1945
Ik weet niet of je bekend bent met het gegeven dat op 27 maart 1945 een grote groep psychiatrische patiënten uit Zuidlaren werd geëvacueerd?

Dat kan van belang zijn voor jouw vraag. Over deze gebeurtenis zijn diverse beschrijvingen te vinden. Zie o.a. http://www.drentheindeoorlog.nl/?aid=333

Met name het boekje Het notitieboekje van Hauptmann Otto Specht kan wel interessant zijn.
(ISBN: 9789023247784)

Deze Hauptmann beschrijft namelijk de evacuatie. Kortom: hij was daar op dat moment (eind maart 1945) in de buurt.
Ik weet niet van welke eenheid deze Specht is, maar dat staat ongetwijfeld in zijn boekje.

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do feb 04, 2016 3:00 pm
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ErnstJan

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Bericht Re: Duitse leger eenheden in Drenthe/ Groningen 1945
Ja daar ben ik bekend mee.

Tnx voor de tip.

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do feb 04, 2016 6:40 pm
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ErnstJan

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Bericht Re: Duitse leger eenheden in Drenthe/ Groningen 1945
De reden dat ik deze informatie vraag is omdat ik bezig ben met een onderzoek naar Leslie Gordon Fowler een Engelse bommenwerper bemanningslid die op 25 februari 1945 neergeschoten is boven Duitsland.

Wat ik weet tot nu toe met zekerheid weet:

- 24/25 feb 1945 neergeschoten boven Viersen, Duitsland.
- Zwaar gewond(zwaar verbrand en een geamputeerde middelvinger van zijn rechterhand.)
-Is op 27 of 28 februari 1945 voor het laatst gezien 10 miles zuidelijk/zuidwestelijk van Krefeld in een burger ziekenhuis. Dit zou in Viersen geweest kunnen zijn. (is zo'n 20 km van elkaar) is toen naar een militair ziekenhuis vervoerd.
-Het gebied is op 1 maart 1945 door de Amerikanen veroverd.
-
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-
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-15 maart 1945 overleden in Zuidlaren en aldaar begraven.
-In Zuidlaren was toen een Duits Kriegslazaret.
-27 maart evacuatie patiënten Dennenoord (hiervoor ook al Kriegslazaret?)
-13 april 1945 Zuidlaren bevrijd door de Canadezen.

Wat ik graag nog duidelijk wil hebben:
1:Waarom een zwaar gewonde soldaat op dat moment van de oorlog zo'n afstand vervoeren(heden ten dage 275 km)? Gebeurde dit meer?
2:Kan het zijn dat hij in Ermelo geweest is, is een zuster psychiatrisch ziekenhuis van het ziekenhuis in Zuidlaren en ook een kriegslazaret in die dagen.(bevrijd op 18 april 1945)
3:Ik neem aan dat er speciale verpleegkundige troepen waren in zulke plaatsen? Waar kan ik achterhalen welke dat waren?
4: Hoe groot is de kans dat het niet om Leslie gaat? Dat er een verwisseling van Dog tags is geweest?
5: is er een Duitse site waar ik meer info kan vinden over POW?

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do feb 04, 2016 7:30 pm
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Jean

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Bericht Re: Duitse leger eenheden in Drenthe/ Groningen 1945
Kriegs lazarett 3/541

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do feb 04, 2016 9:49 pm
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Bericht Re: Duitse leger eenheden in Drenthe/ Groningen 1945
ErnstJan schreef:
-27 maart evacuatie patiënten Dennenoord (hiervoor ook al Kriegslazaret?)


Om op het dik gedrukte gedeelte van deze vraag terug te komen.

Jean geeft het juiste kriegs lazarett (3/541).

Dit werd op 20 februari 1945 gevestigd.

bron: http://www.midlaren.net/wp-content/uplo ... 1995-1.pdf

Volgens deze bron begon men overigens al op 19 februari met het onderbrengen van de "krankzinnigen" uit Dennenoord bij familie.

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vr feb 05, 2016 11:51 am
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ErnstJan

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Bericht Re: Duitse leger eenheden in Drenthe/ Groningen 1945
Citaat:
19 feb. I.v.m. de ontruiming van het krankzinnigengesticht Dennenoord te Zuidlaren, worden
vele patiënten verplicht ondergebracht bij familieleden.
20 feb. Op Dennenoord te Zuidlaren wordt het Kriegslazarett 3/541 gevestigd


DUs 5 dagen voor dat Leslie boven Duitsland neergeschoten word.

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vr feb 05, 2016 3:40 pm
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ErnstJan

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Bericht Re: Duitse leger eenheden in Drenthe/ Groningen 1945
Jean schreef:
Kriegs lazarett 3/541



Dank, als ik zoek op deze info krijg ik alleen een reactie van iets in de voormalige SU.

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vr feb 05, 2016 3:48 pm
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Bericht Re: Duitse leger eenheden in Drenthe/ Groningen 1945
Aangezien Leslie Fowler boven Neersen / Viersen werd neergeschoten kan het volgende misschien helpen om meer info te krijgen:

de auteur Klaus Markus heeft het boek Der grosse Krieg und die kleine Stadt: Alt-Viersener Chronik - 1939-1945 geschreven.
ISBN-10: 3928298097

Daarin beschrijft hij onder meer de bombardementen van 24 februari 1945.
Ik heb het boek zelf niet, maar mogelijk wordt er wat over Fowler in beschreven. Er komt nu eenmaal niet elke dag een gewonde vlieger uit de lucht zetten.

Eventueel kan je proberen die Klaus Markus te benaderen (ken hem zelf niet :wink: )

zie ook: http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/staedte/vie ... -1.2999034

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Never think that war, no matter how necessary, no matter how justified, is not a crime.

Ernest Hemingway


vr feb 05, 2016 7:29 pm
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ErnstJan

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Bericht Re: Duitse leger eenheden in Drenthe/ Groningen 1945
Tnx, Ik weet niet of het de zelfde schrijver is maar deze info heb ik ook:

Citaat:
On the 24 February 1945 at 7:15 pm 214 (SD) Squadron Fortress HB805, BU-C piloted by Fg/Off J.M Shorttle DFM took off from RAF Oulton on a jamming & window operation over Germany. Approx. two hours later it was shot down by Lt. Kurt Matzak of IV./NJG1 flying a Bf 110 G4 nightfighter based at Dortmund. The crash location was in/close to the Niers river at Neersen to the south west of Krefeld Translation of pages 243 – 251 from “und stürzte brennend ab” Flugzeugabstürze Alliierter Bombenflugzeuge am linken Niederrhein im Zweiten Weltkrieg 1939-1945. (243 Allied Bomber aircraft crashes in the left lower Rhine area 1939-1945) published in 2002 (my comment : The author is a local historian rather than an aviation historian – some of his conclusions about the mission are incorrect e.g he does not state that the aircraft was shot down – but he does explain why Ittenbach is given as a crash location & is still being stated on various websites. His suggestion that Fowler was handed over to the British in the Netherlands is also wrong as Zuidlaren was only liberated by the allies on 13 April 1945) ********** Crash No 242) 24. February 1945: crash of a British “Fortress III” bomber in the river Niers at Neersen (Willich) World War 2 had entered its final phase, in the west at the beginning of February the allies had launched two major offensives aimed at breaking through to the Rhine on the Eifel front and in the Netherlands (Operation Grenade). Mönchengladbach-Rheydt was being encircled by US troops, Düren & Jülich having been overrun on February 23, the river Roer had been crossed and Viersen was being approached by the 9th US army during Operation Grenade. The next morning, February 24th – a Saturday, the US 9th AF received orders to bomb the town of Viersen. At 14:30, 210 Allied aircraft dropped explosive & incendiary bombs destroying the town centre and causing many casualties among the civilian population. Later that afternoon at RAF Oulton in Norfolk – the 24th February was a cold clear winter’s day – at 17.14 the nine British and one New Zealand crew-members climbed aboard their four-engined “Fortress III” – a so-called “Flying Fortress” to fly a “Special Duty Operation in the Ruhr Area” – not a bombing mission.
It is known that some of these aircraft were fitted with specialized meteorological measuring equipment – so it is probable that a meteorological data collecting flight was to be flown. The machine carried the serial no. HB805, on the fuselage the 214 Sqdn code BU and the individual aircraft code letter C. Hardly two hours later, at 20:10 German local time – the flight ended in fiasco The aircraft crashed “not due to enemy action” as is emphasized in the reports, on the Willicher Grenzweg – a few meterres from the B7 bridge over the Niers. Seven of the crew were killed immediately, one man was badly injured and a few days later died as a result of severe burns. The pilot’s body was only found later in May 1945, beneath the fuselage of the aircraft which had lain in the Niers – which was flowing very high at that time. The ten man crew comprised of The pilot F/Off. Joseph Malpass Shorttle DFM, 27 years old. His parents were Joseph & Liza Shortlle of Middlesborough Yorkshire, he and his wife Joan had one son. With 23 missions flown and 132 flight hours on bombers, Shorttle was considered an experienced pilot who had flown missions to Cologne, Bochum, Essen and other towns in the Ruhr.. He was a member of the RAFVR as were eight other crew members. 214 Squadron was equipped with various navigation and countermeasure instruments (Fortress Electronic Equipment) He had been awarded the DFM in summer 1943. The navigator was F/Lt. Leslie Gordon Fowler, who had been awarded the DFC in 1943. Fowler was 23 yrs old and came from Worcester Park Surrey where his parents George Robson and Mabel Lillian lived. Wireless Op/ Air Gunner was 24 yr old W/O Frances Herbert Dix, son of Herbert George and Ethel Louise Dix from Auckland and so was the only New Zealander in the crew Co-pilot was W/O Richard William Towell, 30 years old, his parents William John and Maude Kathleen Towell lived in Leighton-on-Sea in Essex. He was usually employed as Air Bomber. F/O Allan Milton Jones was also awarded the DFM in 1943 his recommendation read “… shown the greatest keenness to fly on all operaitonal trips and has always displayed the greatest courage and determination in the face of the enemy” He had flown 21 missions against, amongst others, targets such as Duisburg, Essen, Berlin and Hamburg.
He was employed as an air gunner Also an air gunner was F/Off James Edward Jennings the third crew-member to hold the DFM.- awarded in April 1944. With 21 missions and 152 flight hours he had flown against such targets as Essen, Kassel, Leipzig and Berlin. The oldest member of the crew was 32 yr old F/Lt Frank Richard Woodger. His parents Frank Herbert Stubbs and Gertrude Woodger lived in Bangor Caernarvonshire. Woodger was married and was the flight-engineer F/Sgt Thomas William Hames Pollard, only 19, was the son of Thomas and Florence Beatrice Pollard from Kingscliffe Northamptonshire in the crew list he is given as an air gunner as are F/Sgt Stanley Llewellyn Jones (Special Operator) and F/Off, Kenneth Cecil Allan (W. Op/Air Gnr.) Of the ten crew-members only Jennings was able to use his parachute, he became a POW, as did the badly injured Fowler who died a little later in German imprisonment. Seven further crew were killed in the crash and found at the crash site – so it was assumed that the plane had a nine-man crew which was normal for this type of bomber. This aircraft crash into the Niers on the border between the town of Viersen and the parish of Neersen, only a few days before the occupation on 1st March by the advancing US troops, was forgotten in the confusion of the immediate post-war years, almost clothed in secrecy and could only be clarified in 2002 by the author of this book. It was only by chance that the real crash-site was identified, as the British Loss records had given it as Ittenbach, a town on the Rhine, 12 kilometres south-east of Bonn. Martin Bergers (Willich) mentioned in a conversation that shortly before the end of the war, ten coffins had to be got ready for some allied flyers. The crash site was given as in the Niers in the vicinity of the Konradskappele (wayside chapel)
Frau Elisabeth Herrmanns (nee Gaspers) at the time only 9 years old, living close to the Grenzweg, at the house numbered 80 nowadays, reports. “In those days there were fourteen people living in the house, including our relatives from Viersen who had been bombed out by the earlier attack on Viersen on 24 February 1945 and had come to find shelter with us. Our house was hit by the major section of the aircraft and was totally burnt out. All fourteen occupants survived uninjured, four dead British flyers were lying in the front garden, they had no visible injuries, it was as though they were asleep. The bomber came from a southerly direction – I was asleep in the north part of the house when it happened. Exploding kerosene was reflected in all the windows at the front of the house. The heat caused eight large poplar trees on the banks of the Niers to catch fire. Later a new house was built on the foundations of the burned down house, our family found accommodation in Viersen The information about the crew was contradictory. At first there was talk of ten dead – all Canadians that were buried in Neersen, later one spoke of nine dead and one survivor. The dead were exhumed two months later. One crew member, when captured stammered words sounding like “Jackett, Papiere, Preyer Gut” The farm “Preyerhof” is close to the crash site within sight to the west. I cannot imagine how the crew member could have known that. A large section of the aircraft including the wings fell in the Niers, close to the bridge, behind the B7. In or underneath this part another dead crew member was later found, an injured crew-member, badly burned was found on the road leading to Anrath.” Another witness was Ernest Lehnen fom Grenzweg, then eight years old. Who can recall the crash well. “In the early evening of 24th February my father and I were standing in front of our house when we saw, coming from the direction of Willich, a low-flying aircraft, clearly on fire. Over the bridge, it banked in a large curve to the right and flew along the Niers, and then crashed not to far from us – near to the Konradskapelle. In the weeks and months after the crash and the occupation by the Americans, we boys often played in the remains of the aircraft. I recall that the crew-member who saved himself by parachute had broken both legs, he landed on the other bank and had painfully crawled across the Niers.” Mr Lehnen still has a souvenir from the crash a pair of scissors dated 1943. Comparing these witness reports with documents later received by the author from the archive in Wellington, permits reconstruction of events – containing a few surprises. The bomber was evidently on a meteorological and wireless jamming mission. It could be – that German wireless traffic in the frontline was to be listened to or jammed – possibly with newly developed equipment carried by the aircraft. That eight of the crew were officers and experienced speaks for the mission being a special one. The RAF investigation report, dated 20 July 1945, expressly states that the plane crashed on fire, without enemy action as flak, searchlights and nightfighters were absent. The cause is given as a fire in the inner starboard engine. The short duration of the flight (two hours) suggest that the fire broke out on the way to Krefeld – and the crew felt they could control it – so they continued flying in the direction of the frontline by Düren – Jülich.

Had this not been the case the crew would surely all have jumped out by parachute earlier. Then things however got out of hand – demanding an attempted forced landing. The final flight path described by the witness (Lehnen) suggests that the fire was spreading so fast that the aircraft rapidly lost altitude and was unable to reach the flat area only 100 metres away of what had earlier been a dummy airfield. The fuel tanks exploded owhen close to the Konradkapelle, the starboard wing broke off and fell on the house occupied by the Gaspers family, whilst cockpit and fuselage fell into the Niers, the port wing section smashing into the opposite bank of the Niers Of the ten crew only F/Off Jennings (who jumped immediately prior to the crash) and F/Lt Fowler – who suffered severe burns – survived; both became prisoners of war of the Germans The information provided by witness Herrmans describing how the survivor (we now know to have been Jennings) stammered “Jackett Papiere Preyer Gut” at first unexplainable – supports the theory that the crash was a sudden emergency. Naturally the crew of this reconnaissance mission would have known exactly where they were, despite encroaching darkness, and Jennings could perhaps have decided that over the Preyer Hof was his last chance to jump free – for the others it was too late , for whatever reason. The German crash recovery team which secured the crash site early morning on 25th February and investigated the wreckage, found four bodies in front of the burned out house on the Neersen bank of the Niers - lying as described “as if they were sleeping peacefully”. Local carpenter Bergers had made coffins, then these four Dix, Allan, S L Jones and Pollard were taken to Neersen and buried in the Ehrenfriedhof (Field of Honour) there. Each grave had a simple wooden cross – on which, one witness recalls, their names were painted. On the opposite bank of the Niers – in the Viersen authority’s land, the bodies of Woodger, Towell and AM Jones were found and subsequently buried at Viersen. In April 1946 the British opened the War Cemetery at Rheinberg, where a great number of their war dead now rest, in 1947 the bodies of the seven crew from the “Fortress III” were exhumed and reburied there, An interesting comment was made by the British officer from the graves commission who remarked to a witness present, that the crew had evidently not had personal possessions removed as emergency rations and chocolate were found in the jacket of one of them.

With seven known dead and the two initial survivors known – the tenth crew-member J.M Shorttle was still unaccounted for. After the headlong retreat by the Germans on 1st March 1945, the advancing Americans commenced the search, but they only found him three months later his” badly decomposed body” being found under the remains of the aircrafts fuselage. He was initially buried by them at the US Military cemetery at Ittenbach – only later when his identity was confirmed, were his remains exhumed and re-interred at Rheinberg The fact that the pilot was interred at Ittenbach – without any information given over the crash location – explains why that was also thought to be in the Ittenbach region – e.g in the books about Bomber Command Losses by W. R. Chorley That has been cleared up after fifty years – to the satisfaction of American & British historians led to attempts to contact relatives of the crew to inform them of this. But what of the two survivors? Firstly W/O G J E Jennings who had parachuted to safety and been taken prisoner. According to available documents from the Wellington Archives – He had been interviewed post-war at the RNZAF HQ on 20th July 1945 and 20th September 1945, concerning the whereabouts of F H Dix the sole New Zealander of the crew. His testimony states “Jennings was informed by the Germans that the whole crew, with the exception of the Navigator Fowler, had been killed in the crash. The Germans knew the names of all the crew – which they could only have got from ID cards or possibly from Fowler (!) The Germans knew that one man had jumped, they thought however it was Sgt Jones. Jennings had difficulties convincing them that he was the man and not Jones. The exact crash location could not be established, but was estimated as about ten miles south or south-west of Krefeld” Concerning Fowler, Jennings provided the following information “I saw F/Lt Fowler in a civil hospital about ten miles to the south or south-west of Krefeld on the 27th or 28th February 1945 (this matches the crash location and would be just prior to the US troops occupying the area) We were then taken to a military unit about 2 miles from Krefeld as far as I can tell. F/Lt Fowler was in a very bad way – he was burned all over and was clearly in great pain. A sister said that the index finger of his right hand had to be amputated. Fowler however seemed to think that his recovery was proceeding satisfactorily. He was taken away in an ambulance and I never saw him again” F/Lt Fowler died in a military hospital in the Netherlands on 15th March and was buried in the Zuidlaren General Cemetery / Drente.

This lies between Groningen and Assen, how Fowler got to be there has not yet been established. It is possible that the seriously injured man was handed over to the British – who had liberated the Netherlands Another question remains open – how could the German Wehrmacht know all the names of the crew? They could not have known this solely by identification papers as the pilot had not yet been found at that period Subsequent to the initial research the witness Lehnen was able to provide further information “The machine came from there (pointing in the direction of Neuwerk) and was trailing a large cloud of black smoke behind it. In the area to the left of the tree (pointing from the bridge in the direction of Viersen) lay the wreck. Gaspers Hof was hit by a wing and burned down completely. Later the brother of the dead pilot came here seeking his brother,” Ernst Lehnen still possesses a pair of scissors which he found in the wreck. On one side is engraved R Grofeld Sheffield England, on the other side 1943. The search for relatives has had one success. On J M Shorttle’s headstone in Rheinberg cemetery the names of his wife Joan and son Michael are engraved. The only Michael Shorttle traced in England is the son of the pilot Shorttle. He lives in Middlesborough and contact has been established. ********** Extract from page 238 of “Nachtjagd War Diaries” by Dutch historian Theo Boiten Lt. Kurt Matzak, 13 Stab IV/NJG1 B-17 20.08, 214 Sqdn B-17 HB805 It is believed that the first aircraft to be intercepted was 214 Squadron Fortress HB805, which was attacked and shot down by Lt. Kurt Matzak of IV./NJG1. The Fortress crashed with the starboard inner engine on fire at 20.10 hrs, into the River Niers, near Neersen. Nine of the 11-man crew were killed. The surviving crew members were unaware of any night fighter attack, and the Bomber Command ORS later assessed this loss as being caused by an engine fire that was ‘not due to enemy action’.

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vr feb 05, 2016 8:14 pm
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Bericht Re: Duitse leger eenheden in Drenthe/ Groningen 1945
In Königswinter (waar Ittenbach onderdeel van is) bevond zich overigens een Reservelazarett Königswinter.
Misschien is er via dat gegeven wat te vinden? Kans lijkt me groot dat Fowler daar is geweest.

Zie: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... derung.htm

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di feb 16, 2016 1:02 pm
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